This episode originally aired October 29, 2021 Danny and Derek speak with Daniel Immerwahr, professor of history at Northwestern University, about all things Dune. They discuss the importance of culture to understanding U.S. empire, the history of imperial U.S. fiction, the life and times of Frank Herbert, and how Herbert's particular vision of technology, empire, and indigenous politics informed the writing of
Relistened to this over the weekend to get ready, Daniel should come back for more Dune talk. Obviously there’s a lot to be said about Frank Herbert and Islam, but I’d love to hear more about the Bene Gesserit, who get a lot more prominence in Part 2. As a Jesuit-educated Catholic, I love how they’re basically every anti-papist conspiracy theory about Jesuits rolled up into one, with a healthy dose of sexist anxiety about conniving women. It’s right there in the name!
A lot of people find it boring, or white savior centric, or up its own philosophical bullshitery, which I agree with at various points, but I really enjoy it. What do you think makes it terrible?
Full disclosure: like nearly everybody, I was told "Dune is one of the greatest science fiction books ever, you need to read it!" So I tried. After maybe 50 pages, I gave up. You're along the right line with your 'white savior and philosophical bullshittery,' but primarily for me, the disappointment is the whole vision of the future. Really? Thousands of years from now, with interstellar space travel, humanity is still going to be divided into petty aristocratic houses, backstabbing each other for power? Plus magic is real and women are witches and a breeding project?
Most people I talked to who loved Dune don't seem to realize what an insanely conservative vision of the future this is. It has somehow acquired an untouchable classic mystique. Sci-fi should expand our imagination about the future, Dune limits your imagination to think the future is going to be a sort of weird bloody 17th century aristocratic court intrigue meets Lawrence of Arabia.
Plus it is insanely misogynist. I remember, finding an adult friend reading it, I flipped open his copy to a random page and read something like: "Jessica stood back from Paul in the cave, recognizing Paul's hyper-functioning mind needed space to think" (not exact quote). A little nugget like that rolls off most people, but again, it is an insanely misogynist book- know your place and role, woman. You're either a breeding project, a witch, or a back seat consort.
As a vision of the future Dune is not what our adolescents should be putting into their brains, in my opinion.
I also relistened to this last week. I would enjoy some kind of follow up.
Relistened to this over the weekend to get ready, Daniel should come back for more Dune talk. Obviously there’s a lot to be said about Frank Herbert and Islam, but I’d love to hear more about the Bene Gesserit, who get a lot more prominence in Part 2. As a Jesuit-educated Catholic, I love how they’re basically every anti-papist conspiracy theory about Jesuits rolled up into one, with a healthy dose of sexist anxiety about conniving women. It’s right there in the name!
Dune is so terrible. Ugh. What a great hate listen!
A lot of people find it boring, or white savior centric, or up its own philosophical bullshitery, which I agree with at various points, but I really enjoy it. What do you think makes it terrible?
Full disclosure: like nearly everybody, I was told "Dune is one of the greatest science fiction books ever, you need to read it!" So I tried. After maybe 50 pages, I gave up. You're along the right line with your 'white savior and philosophical bullshittery,' but primarily for me, the disappointment is the whole vision of the future. Really? Thousands of years from now, with interstellar space travel, humanity is still going to be divided into petty aristocratic houses, backstabbing each other for power? Plus magic is real and women are witches and a breeding project?
Most people I talked to who loved Dune don't seem to realize what an insanely conservative vision of the future this is. It has somehow acquired an untouchable classic mystique. Sci-fi should expand our imagination about the future, Dune limits your imagination to think the future is going to be a sort of weird bloody 17th century aristocratic court intrigue meets Lawrence of Arabia.
Plus it is insanely misogynist. I remember, finding an adult friend reading it, I flipped open his copy to a random page and read something like: "Jessica stood back from Paul in the cave, recognizing Paul's hyper-functioning mind needed space to think" (not exact quote). A little nugget like that rolls off most people, but again, it is an insanely misogynist book- know your place and role, woman. You're either a breeding project, a witch, or a back seat consort.
As a vision of the future Dune is not what our adolescents should be putting into their brains, in my opinion.
Thanks for sharing.