Great episode. Alot a very good analysis and thoughts. Another aspect of First Person Shooters: they are inherently individualistic.
My opinion: video games are the new opiate of the masses.
I have trouble with calling video games an art form. Art does a lot of things. Art can be propaganda, a status symbol. A way of adding dignity, significance, and celebration to objects of everyday use. Art can be used to enhance cultural rights of passage and communal celebrations. Fine literature can expand your perspective on the human world and reveal structures and relationships to a reader. Or, at its peak, (Ruskin/William Morris view) art can be taking joy in work.
Video games don't do any of that. They may look pretty, but that does not make them art. Video games to me most resemble a drug and interactive propaganda that you have to pay for. Gamers literally get chemical hits and need their fix, and their brain is influenced, limiting their imagination in all the ways described in this episode.
In a world where we seem to have so little power; computer games offer a fantasy escapist world where you are the center of the world narrative with heroic power. A retreat to the real world to an artificial one where you have control. So there is some power fantasy and escapism at play, in addition to the drug addictive aspects of it and underlying propagandistic tropes.
Just imagine if the billions of dollars and thousands of hours spent computer gaming were spent, you know, organizing or getting involved in real politics. We might actually have a real viable socialist or communist party. But instead we sit in our chairs and couches and do the equivalent of ingesting drugs that offer us a fantasy of power, or tickle our weird human puzzle solving drive.
Luckily for the world, you don't get to decide what art is or limit it. It's a very pretentious, snobbish world view. Have you ever thought what life might be like if we did have a socialist or communist society? If those battles are won, then what might people do with their time? Some people might spend it playing video games. We might not have a real viable socialist or communist party because no one is motivated to join a group made up of "better than thou" elites.
These views on art aren't mine. They are what other thinkers put up as possible traits of art. I look at those ideas, I look at video games, and personally I see something different going on. 'Art' is a broad term, I can see issues with any attempt to define it. I see also in people claiming video games as 'art' something in the 'appeal to authority' argument to try and justify their fondness (and thousands of hours spent on) video games. Everybody generally thinks art is a good thing. Calling video games 'art' is an attempt to put thousands of hours spent playing a fake artificial puzzle grind quest on the same level as experiencing a Gothic cathedral or reading Moby Dick.
And the "better than thou" elites right now certainly aren't Commies. The elites right now are the ones controlling our foreign policy, spending trillions on wars, and running the boardrooms of banks, corporations, and universities.
But I take your criticism, if you want to put the billions of dollars and millions of hours of the video game industry and direct it towards Anarco-Capitalism, Libertarianism, Classical Liberalism, or whatever instead - go for it. Or just keep on gaming while the world burns.
If only people didn't spend all their time listening to podcasts and typing comments, we'd have communism now. How dare people toil away at jobs in a capitalist society and then unwind with their favorite activity at the end of the day. Get out on the street and fight. There's no way someone has both pleasure activities and advocates for something better.
Besides I'm not calling communists elites, I'm calling people who denigrate others elites with their egotistical thinking.
They do, actually. Yes, there's a lot of trash out there, but the same can be said for literally every other form of art that exists. The average novel is trash. The average film is trash. Whatever form of art you prefer is mostly trash. People who care will find what's worthwhile, and of the rest none need be said.
Also, the whole "chemical hits" thing is nonsense. You're getting chemical hits every moment of your life. Video games aren't some weird magical spell, they are a thing that can be experienced; that experience, like any other, has the potential to be art.
Alright, I am curious here. I do speak as an ex-gamer. I grew up playing console and computer games. There were a lot of memorable, excellently made, emotionally rewarding games. In retrospect though I would hardly call them good. What games exactly are you talking about as being good, quality games?
Exercise addiction is a thing. You definitely get some chemical hits that are rewarding from a good workout. As an ex-gamer, I do have to say there definitely were similar dopamine rewards from gaming. I got a rush anyways, after particularly cool and intense gaming experiences. We may have to disagree on that one.
You seem to think that the enjoyment of the game itself is what disqualifies it as art, as if the only things that count as art are things that could put you to sleep. This perspective is incomprehensible to me.
Enjoyment disqualifies it as art? Not at all. I spelled out above the various things art does. Enjoyment is certainly one of them. Let me rehash:
1. Art can be propaganda. This is clear in many forms. Trajan's column. A beautiful monument erected with great skill and craftsmanship, with artistic composition telling a story. A stained glass window, telling the story of Christ. A WW2 propaganda poster. A Call of Duty Video game expressing a particular world view, that has 'cooperation' with the US military. To me, a vehicle for propaganda is the one quality of art video games most fall under.
2. Art can become a status symbol. The Hall of Mirrors at Versailles. Beautiful, amazing, pleasurable to behold - there is art in it, but it is definitely to be understood as an expression of power and luxury. This also goes for expensive artworks purchased and hung in billionaire's mansions. It is more about rarity and exclusive possession of a fine object than any underlying meaning expressed in the objects. Ownership of computer games does not fall under this category in our society. There are people with ridiculous gaming rigs and even custom designed gaming rooms, but these are not the true status symbols of our society (yachts, private jets, large mansions, expensive vacations, and servants).
3. Application of art can be a way of adding dignity, significance, and celebration to objects of everyday use. There is art in a thoughtfully stylized, decorated, or ornamented object. From clothing design to tools, to household goods. It was thought at one point that adding some expressiveness to these objects gives them both an art, but can also become a strong cultural signifier and form of solidarity. Computer games do not serve this function.
4. Art can be used to enhance cultural rights of passage and communal celebrations. Important moments in life generally attract decorations or artfully constructed settings. At a peasant feast day everybody gets into the same artfully constructed dress, and this is a meaningful experience that builds communal solidarity. At a wedding, ceremonies are held in beautiful very artistic churches, or in secular buildings that are layered up with art. Dance can fall into this category - specific dances; manipulating the body in space with music - this is art. I do not see computer games fulfilling this function of art - enhancing the experience of a ritual rite of passage or social celebration.
5. 'Communicative art.' Visual art, drama, and literature tell stories. Fine literature can expand your perspective on the human world and reveal actual structures and relationships to a reader. Playing the latest murder quest or resource harvesting competition clicker to me does not fill this niche role of art. I've played some games with amazing stories. Generally though, they suffer from a Lord-of-the-Rings syndrome, where people get obsessed about minutia of an artificially constructed world, rather than thinking about structures and power relationships.
6. Art can be taking joy in work. This is a more interesting one, raised by a couple 19th Century British writers. The idea is that artful overflow of expression - architectural ornamentation, beautifully styled clothing - is a symptom of a happy engaged worker. Unnecessary extra trim work around an opening shows that a carpenter was taking some pride and joy in the labor. Again, the act of playing a computer game I don't see as having any connection to this - you're not creating something, but being managed through a constructed experience. And I don't think the thousands of coders involved in modern blockbuster games are in their production making an expression of joyous work.
I hope that makes it more clear. To me, video games are most akin to the consumption of a drug, with some possible propagandistic overlays. They do not fulfill some of the traditional roles art has fulfilled in society.
Loved this episode, there needs to be way more serious analysis of gaming from the left! I’d love to hear more discussion on the topic of video games and alienation. I think I agree with the analysis that games play an alienating role while simultaneously providing people with a path for relief from subjective alienation. The social spaces that have been created by gaming are really fascinating, both online and in person (like arcades and grassroots FGC). I think they traditionally appeal to a section of society that is particularly affected by alienation too. These social spaces have also been identified as a lucrative market by the capitalist class in the last decade with the rise of monetized content creation and corporate esports. I think a class analysis of gamer spaces would be really interesting
Great conversation. I hope in a future episode you could talk about grand strategy, especially the Paradox map-painting games, since that seems to be a powerful lens through which gamers are encountering whole historical epochs and geopolitics. I need Danny's take on communism in HOI4 or Victoria 3!
yeah i really expected the conversation to pivot in this direction when danny asked a question about the possibility of building a socialist utopia in a city building game, a missed opportunity honestly
It'd also be really interesting to talk about the labor side of video games. I love RDR2, but the story's attempts at an elegy for a pristine world being ground down by technological advances and alienated labor, felt very strange coming from a product of brutal crunch.
Excellent episode! Thank you to all involved for indulging a member of the hoi polloi like myself with a stimulating discussion about a beloved and yet toxic pastime that was as academic as was entertaining.
The plot of Fallout 3 is to ensure a fresh water supply for a post apocalyptic wasteland, and to prevent the fascist remnants of the United States government from monopolizing it for a racialized subset of "pure" humans. It would've been interesting to hear you all discuss that
Remember that pokemon phone game that got all the gamer kids outside discovering public parks and their hometown geography for the first time? I was hoping that was the future, but they all went back inside.
I'm a game criticism "wonk" you could say and though the guests did a good job on the broad strokes critique of FPS/Call of Duty, I think they perhaps weren't prepared to discuss the capitalism aspect of it all.
Trevor Strunk, Zoe Bee, Jacob Geller, Renata Price, Patrick Klepek, Rob Zacny, and many other game critics out there have been explicitly looking at games from a leftist perspective. I think one of these people would have been more prepared to give you an overview of video game depictions of utopian class warfare, alienation, labour, consumption, expansion, escapism, environmentalism, etc. in video games. These themes aren't just explored in obscure indies either. One of last year's most successful games is explicitly a Marxist text (Disco Elysium) and won multiple Game of the Year awards!
Again, I thoroughly enjoyed the episode and I hope I'm not coming across as saying "you had the wrong guests on". It's just that game criticism and gaming in general has a deep history of grappling with capitalism and there are interesting voices documenting and engaging with this aspect of gaming as their speciality (not to mention the Marxist scholarship around gaming). I encourage anyone reading this to read up on some of the output of the people mentioned earlier!
Your guests are completely wrong about RDR2 not focusing enough on the Native American experience. The missions are mostly optional, but you help a tribe fight against the military and business. One of the best soundtrack beats hits on one of these missions, so ya to say the game ignored the issue is just completely false. If anything, it’s the only game I can think of that tackled the issue with an honesty to history. https://youtu.be/P1W4grDLPec?si=hVgTIK0tXCrKCm0u
The whole game doesn’t focus on the issue, but it’s sprinkled through the story. Like when you’re taught by the half native gang member (best dude) how to hunt and you learn about buffalo massacres as was carried out as part of expansion plans.
Also, just to be a nerd and defend my horse simulator some more. This was never going to be an indie game that can focus on these narrow slices of the time period this game is set in. It’s already so fucking long, it gets shit on because you take an entire chapter detoure to learn about plantation slavery and island colonization, where again you play a revolutionary who fights slavers. All of this in a game brought to you by the same people who gave the culture gta. I dunno, it’s a broad cultural product that went out of its way to introduce all these elements your guests just dismissed. I’m wondering if they paid much attention to the game aside from the basic,l fact that yes, it’s a dumb murder simulator / cowboy fantasy thing and your usually only good when you’re enacting be vengeance. But meh, ya. I’m too high for this critique but rdr2 rules and anyone who says otherwise drools. Charles is the best and you’re an asshole if you didn’t cry when you set him on his way in the home building section.
Interesting you all didn’t greatly talk about Last of Us 2 too much. It on one hand does attempt to “humanize” the countless CPUs you kill (their screams sound human, they reference their relationships with others) while also forcing you to reckon with the question of the morality of your own character. On the other hand it’s a pretty “centrist” allegory for the Israel Palestinian War, although even there it does have redeeming qualities.
I've never been too interested in video games and this episode gives a number of great example why. I just don't care about getting the power up or the high score and there are a lot better stories elsewhere that don't have me constantly pushing a button.
Have whatever hobbies you want, but if you think the majority of gaming in the 2020s is getting power-ups and high scores like it's a 1980s arcade game, then you're seriously out of touch.
Also - if you guys wanted to do a follow up episode about a specific game you don't mention, Frostpunk would be a very interesting subject of analysis.
Great episode. Alot a very good analysis and thoughts. Another aspect of First Person Shooters: they are inherently individualistic.
My opinion: video games are the new opiate of the masses.
I have trouble with calling video games an art form. Art does a lot of things. Art can be propaganda, a status symbol. A way of adding dignity, significance, and celebration to objects of everyday use. Art can be used to enhance cultural rights of passage and communal celebrations. Fine literature can expand your perspective on the human world and reveal structures and relationships to a reader. Or, at its peak, (Ruskin/William Morris view) art can be taking joy in work.
Video games don't do any of that. They may look pretty, but that does not make them art. Video games to me most resemble a drug and interactive propaganda that you have to pay for. Gamers literally get chemical hits and need their fix, and their brain is influenced, limiting their imagination in all the ways described in this episode.
One last thought I forgot to get in there:
In a world where we seem to have so little power; computer games offer a fantasy escapist world where you are the center of the world narrative with heroic power. A retreat to the real world to an artificial one where you have control. So there is some power fantasy and escapism at play, in addition to the drug addictive aspects of it and underlying propagandistic tropes.
Just imagine if the billions of dollars and thousands of hours spent computer gaming were spent, you know, organizing or getting involved in real politics. We might actually have a real viable socialist or communist party. But instead we sit in our chairs and couches and do the equivalent of ingesting drugs that offer us a fantasy of power, or tickle our weird human puzzle solving drive.
Luckily for the world, you don't get to decide what art is or limit it. It's a very pretentious, snobbish world view. Have you ever thought what life might be like if we did have a socialist or communist society? If those battles are won, then what might people do with their time? Some people might spend it playing video games. We might not have a real viable socialist or communist party because no one is motivated to join a group made up of "better than thou" elites.
These views on art aren't mine. They are what other thinkers put up as possible traits of art. I look at those ideas, I look at video games, and personally I see something different going on. 'Art' is a broad term, I can see issues with any attempt to define it. I see also in people claiming video games as 'art' something in the 'appeal to authority' argument to try and justify their fondness (and thousands of hours spent on) video games. Everybody generally thinks art is a good thing. Calling video games 'art' is an attempt to put thousands of hours spent playing a fake artificial puzzle grind quest on the same level as experiencing a Gothic cathedral or reading Moby Dick.
And the "better than thou" elites right now certainly aren't Commies. The elites right now are the ones controlling our foreign policy, spending trillions on wars, and running the boardrooms of banks, corporations, and universities.
But I take your criticism, if you want to put the billions of dollars and millions of hours of the video game industry and direct it towards Anarco-Capitalism, Libertarianism, Classical Liberalism, or whatever instead - go for it. Or just keep on gaming while the world burns.
If only people didn't spend all their time listening to podcasts and typing comments, we'd have communism now. How dare people toil away at jobs in a capitalist society and then unwind with their favorite activity at the end of the day. Get out on the street and fight. There's no way someone has both pleasure activities and advocates for something better.
Besides I'm not calling communists elites, I'm calling people who denigrate others elites with their egotistical thinking.
"Video games don't do any of that."
They do, actually. Yes, there's a lot of trash out there, but the same can be said for literally every other form of art that exists. The average novel is trash. The average film is trash. Whatever form of art you prefer is mostly trash. People who care will find what's worthwhile, and of the rest none need be said.
Also, the whole "chemical hits" thing is nonsense. You're getting chemical hits every moment of your life. Video games aren't some weird magical spell, they are a thing that can be experienced; that experience, like any other, has the potential to be art.
Alright, I am curious here. I do speak as an ex-gamer. I grew up playing console and computer games. There were a lot of memorable, excellently made, emotionally rewarding games. In retrospect though I would hardly call them good. What games exactly are you talking about as being good, quality games?
Exercise addiction is a thing. You definitely get some chemical hits that are rewarding from a good workout. As an ex-gamer, I do have to say there definitely were similar dopamine rewards from gaming. I got a rush anyways, after particularly cool and intense gaming experiences. We may have to disagree on that one.
You seem to think that the enjoyment of the game itself is what disqualifies it as art, as if the only things that count as art are things that could put you to sleep. This perspective is incomprehensible to me.
Enjoyment disqualifies it as art? Not at all. I spelled out above the various things art does. Enjoyment is certainly one of them. Let me rehash:
1. Art can be propaganda. This is clear in many forms. Trajan's column. A beautiful monument erected with great skill and craftsmanship, with artistic composition telling a story. A stained glass window, telling the story of Christ. A WW2 propaganda poster. A Call of Duty Video game expressing a particular world view, that has 'cooperation' with the US military. To me, a vehicle for propaganda is the one quality of art video games most fall under.
2. Art can become a status symbol. The Hall of Mirrors at Versailles. Beautiful, amazing, pleasurable to behold - there is art in it, but it is definitely to be understood as an expression of power and luxury. This also goes for expensive artworks purchased and hung in billionaire's mansions. It is more about rarity and exclusive possession of a fine object than any underlying meaning expressed in the objects. Ownership of computer games does not fall under this category in our society. There are people with ridiculous gaming rigs and even custom designed gaming rooms, but these are not the true status symbols of our society (yachts, private jets, large mansions, expensive vacations, and servants).
3. Application of art can be a way of adding dignity, significance, and celebration to objects of everyday use. There is art in a thoughtfully stylized, decorated, or ornamented object. From clothing design to tools, to household goods. It was thought at one point that adding some expressiveness to these objects gives them both an art, but can also become a strong cultural signifier and form of solidarity. Computer games do not serve this function.
4. Art can be used to enhance cultural rights of passage and communal celebrations. Important moments in life generally attract decorations or artfully constructed settings. At a peasant feast day everybody gets into the same artfully constructed dress, and this is a meaningful experience that builds communal solidarity. At a wedding, ceremonies are held in beautiful very artistic churches, or in secular buildings that are layered up with art. Dance can fall into this category - specific dances; manipulating the body in space with music - this is art. I do not see computer games fulfilling this function of art - enhancing the experience of a ritual rite of passage or social celebration.
5. 'Communicative art.' Visual art, drama, and literature tell stories. Fine literature can expand your perspective on the human world and reveal actual structures and relationships to a reader. Playing the latest murder quest or resource harvesting competition clicker to me does not fill this niche role of art. I've played some games with amazing stories. Generally though, they suffer from a Lord-of-the-Rings syndrome, where people get obsessed about minutia of an artificially constructed world, rather than thinking about structures and power relationships.
6. Art can be taking joy in work. This is a more interesting one, raised by a couple 19th Century British writers. The idea is that artful overflow of expression - architectural ornamentation, beautifully styled clothing - is a symptom of a happy engaged worker. Unnecessary extra trim work around an opening shows that a carpenter was taking some pride and joy in the labor. Again, the act of playing a computer game I don't see as having any connection to this - you're not creating something, but being managed through a constructed experience. And I don't think the thousands of coders involved in modern blockbuster games are in their production making an expression of joyous work.
I hope that makes it more clear. To me, video games are most akin to the consumption of a drug, with some possible propagandistic overlays. They do not fulfill some of the traditional roles art has fulfilled in society.
Loved this episode, there needs to be way more serious analysis of gaming from the left! I’d love to hear more discussion on the topic of video games and alienation. I think I agree with the analysis that games play an alienating role while simultaneously providing people with a path for relief from subjective alienation. The social spaces that have been created by gaming are really fascinating, both online and in person (like arcades and grassroots FGC). I think they traditionally appeal to a section of society that is particularly affected by alienation too. These social spaces have also been identified as a lucrative market by the capitalist class in the last decade with the rise of monetized content creation and corporate esports. I think a class analysis of gamer spaces would be really interesting
Great conversation. I hope in a future episode you could talk about grand strategy, especially the Paradox map-painting games, since that seems to be a powerful lens through which gamers are encountering whole historical epochs and geopolitics. I need Danny's take on communism in HOI4 or Victoria 3!
yeah i really expected the conversation to pivot in this direction when danny asked a question about the possibility of building a socialist utopia in a city building game, a missed opportunity honestly
It'd also be really interesting to talk about the labor side of video games. I love RDR2, but the story's attempts at an elegy for a pristine world being ground down by technological advances and alienated labor, felt very strange coming from a product of brutal crunch.
This might finally be the niche podcast that I can talk to other parents about.
Lol we try
Excellent episode! Thank you to all involved for indulging a member of the hoi polloi like myself with a stimulating discussion about a beloved and yet toxic pastime that was as academic as was entertaining.
The plot of Fallout 3 is to ensure a fresh water supply for a post apocalyptic wasteland, and to prevent the fascist remnants of the United States government from monopolizing it for a racialized subset of "pure" humans. It would've been interesting to hear you all discuss that
We're planning on doing more episodes on gaming, so we appreciate the idea!
dear god please no
Lol
Remember that pokemon phone game that got all the gamer kids outside discovering public parks and their hometown geography for the first time? I was hoping that was the future, but they all went back inside.
I hear what you're saying about getting people outside, but I found the whole "augmented reality" aspect of it kind of disturbing.
agreed
I'm a game criticism "wonk" you could say and though the guests did a good job on the broad strokes critique of FPS/Call of Duty, I think they perhaps weren't prepared to discuss the capitalism aspect of it all.
Trevor Strunk, Zoe Bee, Jacob Geller, Renata Price, Patrick Klepek, Rob Zacny, and many other game critics out there have been explicitly looking at games from a leftist perspective. I think one of these people would have been more prepared to give you an overview of video game depictions of utopian class warfare, alienation, labour, consumption, expansion, escapism, environmentalism, etc. in video games. These themes aren't just explored in obscure indies either. One of last year's most successful games is explicitly a Marxist text (Disco Elysium) and won multiple Game of the Year awards!
Again, I thoroughly enjoyed the episode and I hope I'm not coming across as saying "you had the wrong guests on". It's just that game criticism and gaming in general has a deep history of grappling with capitalism and there are interesting voices documenting and engaging with this aspect of gaming as their speciality (not to mention the Marxist scholarship around gaming). I encourage anyone reading this to read up on some of the output of the people mentioned earlier!
Thank you for mentioning disco elysium came here to do just that!
Same
Your guests are completely wrong about RDR2 not focusing enough on the Native American experience. The missions are mostly optional, but you help a tribe fight against the military and business. One of the best soundtrack beats hits on one of these missions, so ya to say the game ignored the issue is just completely false. If anything, it’s the only game I can think of that tackled the issue with an honesty to history. https://youtu.be/P1W4grDLPec?si=hVgTIK0tXCrKCm0u
The whole game doesn’t focus on the issue, but it’s sprinkled through the story. Like when you’re taught by the half native gang member (best dude) how to hunt and you learn about buffalo massacres as was carried out as part of expansion plans.
Also, just to be a nerd and defend my horse simulator some more. This was never going to be an indie game that can focus on these narrow slices of the time period this game is set in. It’s already so fucking long, it gets shit on because you take an entire chapter detoure to learn about plantation slavery and island colonization, where again you play a revolutionary who fights slavers. All of this in a game brought to you by the same people who gave the culture gta. I dunno, it’s a broad cultural product that went out of its way to introduce all these elements your guests just dismissed. I’m wondering if they paid much attention to the game aside from the basic,l fact that yes, it’s a dumb murder simulator / cowboy fantasy thing and your usually only good when you’re enacting be vengeance. But meh, ya. I’m too high for this critique but rdr2 rules and anyone who says otherwise drools. Charles is the best and you’re an asshole if you didn’t cry when you set him on his way in the home building section.
Interesting you all didn’t greatly talk about Last of Us 2 too much. It on one hand does attempt to “humanize” the countless CPUs you kill (their screams sound human, they reference their relationships with others) while also forcing you to reckon with the question of the morality of your own character. On the other hand it’s a pretty “centrist” allegory for the Israel Palestinian War, although even there it does have redeeming qualities.
I've never been too interested in video games and this episode gives a number of great example why. I just don't care about getting the power up or the high score and there are a lot better stories elsewhere that don't have me constantly pushing a button.
Have whatever hobbies you want, but if you think the majority of gaming in the 2020s is getting power-ups and high scores like it's a 1980s arcade game, then you're seriously out of touch.
And loving it!
This might be on interest, coming from the „anonymous military aged Arab male“ pov. https://media.ccc.de/v/33c3-8419-the_clash_of_digitalizations
Danny, what do you play on? And, what do you enjoy playing most nowadays?
Also - if you guys wanted to do a follow up episode about a specific game you don't mention, Frostpunk would be a very interesting subject of analysis.
I haven’t played in a while bc of time but I’m looking into getting a PS5. I go through stages with gaming