Danny and Derek welcome Jim Gray, former chief of the Osage Nation, to the podcast to discuss Martin Scorcese’s film Killers of the Flower Moon. They explore Osage history leading up to the events depicted in the film, Osage culture and politics, the book upon which the film is based, to what extent the filmmakers worked with Osage people throughout production, what distinguishes this film from other Hollywood portrayals of Native Americans, and more.
Oct 31, 2023·edited Oct 31, 2023Liked by Daniel Bessner, American Prestige
Well this was of great interest to me because when I was active with the OKC DSA chapter, I suggested the book as a reading and we did the reading. There are other books, focused on what was a very strong socialist movement in Oklahoma (believe it not Oklahoma was actually the right shade of red for a while). For me digging into this history was important, specifically in educating ourselves about our local socialist histories, and uncovering these threads. IMO, this was a matter of education about our past that could provide some traction for a more just future - a small space that we could build off from in education the population that Oklahoma had one had a strong social gospel movement that was actually quite diverse. In fact, we had more socialist newspapers than one could shake a stick out. However, none of that worked out - there was very little interest in the stories of Oklahoma socialism, but at least the book got read so people knew about this before there was the film.
Which book did you suggest and then read? Killers of the Flower Moon: The Osage Murders and the Birth of the FBI by David Grann, or A Pipe for February by Charles H. Red Corn, Martin Scorsese (Foreword)?
The first book was Killers of the Flower Moon - was not aware of the other or would have surely suggested that. Was also doing some other reading about Alternative Oklahoma ideologies then, but was outside of the country, let alone the state. Would be interested in anything else you have to suggest.
Also have read "Alternative Oklahoma: Contrarian Views of the Sooner State" and was starting to read, "Agrarian Socialism in America
Marx, Jefferson, and Jesus in the Oklahoma Countryside, 1904–1920" by Jim Bissett. Then I realized that my approach was not popular, and just dropped the whole matter - will get back to it when my time permits, but just for my own enjoyment this time.
It doesn't really matter. I moved onto to work in another area where I found that I could more effectively implement change. It just happens like that sometimes.
Nov 2, 2023·edited Nov 2, 2023Liked by Daniel Bessner
I just got a mathematical statistician job at the Census Bureau (demographic bureau to be specific measuring vacancy rates). The fact that the census from that period showed that headrights holders in those territories had a much higher mortality rate- 50% versus 13% for regular residents of that county-makes me feel like I will have meaningful and important work there.
Saw it past Sunday, had to convince friend to see it, she wanted smth lighter. As you say, movie is great, tough to watch but great or great because of what makes it tough. Tho what Jim Gray says also rings true, the Osage would have made a different movie.
Jim Gray asks, "When have you ever heard any citizen of the US having to pay the FBI to do an investigation? Or any federal agency to do their job?" I would guess, at least indirectly and in a broader sense of "pay", maybe not in this shameless open way, this happens regularly. I don't know the US well enough. But if you are "someone", you can get things done, things like investigations. Also, FBI is obviously political, guided by the top political executive, in turn guided by political funding corruption.
Well this was of great interest to me because when I was active with the OKC DSA chapter, I suggested the book as a reading and we did the reading. There are other books, focused on what was a very strong socialist movement in Oklahoma (believe it not Oklahoma was actually the right shade of red for a while). For me digging into this history was important, specifically in educating ourselves about our local socialist histories, and uncovering these threads. IMO, this was a matter of education about our past that could provide some traction for a more just future - a small space that we could build off from in education the population that Oklahoma had one had a strong social gospel movement that was actually quite diverse. In fact, we had more socialist newspapers than one could shake a stick out. However, none of that worked out - there was very little interest in the stories of Oklahoma socialism, but at least the book got read so people knew about this before there was the film.
Which book did you suggest and then read? Killers of the Flower Moon: The Osage Murders and the Birth of the FBI by David Grann, or A Pipe for February by Charles H. Red Corn, Martin Scorsese (Foreword)?
The first book was Killers of the Flower Moon - was not aware of the other or would have surely suggested that. Was also doing some other reading about Alternative Oklahoma ideologies then, but was outside of the country, let alone the state. Would be interested in anything else you have to suggest.
I can't suggest any other books unfortunately) but maybe others or our hosts can.
I enjoy spending time here: https://www.okhistory.org/research/newsplist?group=Socialist
Also have read "Alternative Oklahoma: Contrarian Views of the Sooner State" and was starting to read, "Agrarian Socialism in America
Marx, Jefferson, and Jesus in the Oklahoma Countryside, 1904–1920" by Jim Bissett. Then I realized that my approach was not popular, and just dropped the whole matter - will get back to it when my time permits, but just for my own enjoyment this time.
What was or is your approach?
It doesn't really matter. I moved onto to work in another area where I found that I could more effectively implement change. It just happens like that sometimes.
I just got a mathematical statistician job at the Census Bureau (demographic bureau to be specific measuring vacancy rates). The fact that the census from that period showed that headrights holders in those territories had a much higher mortality rate- 50% versus 13% for regular residents of that county-makes me feel like I will have meaningful and important work there.
This was great! I just saw the movie on Sunday - my only complaint is that it needed an intermission
Saw it past Sunday, had to convince friend to see it, she wanted smth lighter. As you say, movie is great, tough to watch but great or great because of what makes it tough. Tho what Jim Gray says also rings true, the Osage would have made a different movie.
Jim Gray asks, "When have you ever heard any citizen of the US having to pay the FBI to do an investigation? Or any federal agency to do their job?" I would guess, at least indirectly and in a broader sense of "pay", maybe not in this shameless open way, this happens regularly. I don't know the US well enough. But if you are "someone", you can get things done, things like investigations. Also, FBI is obviously political, guided by the top political executive, in turn guided by political funding corruption.